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2009-01-08 18:19:10
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Faff is a great word, I think it was [SilverFire] who got me using it. Anyway, during the course of writing Playgans I found that I had taken to swearing a great deal more than I used to. And decided it wasn't all that professional of me, so decided to try and stop. But I never made any promises...

---

It has been brought to my attention, that I swear too much. So in a bid to raise the decorum of Playgans (hah) I shall substitute the word fuck for faff. But if you render me beyond annoyed and in to the realms of frothing at the mouth (again) I will turn the sky a shade of red and stun passing birds as my language flies through the air, you have been warned.

The reason for this delightful little excursion in to the realms of my madness was the following statement:

"I can link Paganism and Christianity" - fair enough you might say.
Their reasoning? It goes okay until it reaches the point where the argument basically comes down to "Christianity is basically paganism" and that's when I start faffing.

First of all, the term "pagan" these days refers to anyone that does not conform to mainstream religion. To a Christian it refers to the heathens (all other religions regardless of mainstream standing) who don't worship their God. (The ye olde terme used to be "Paganus" back in a time when "heathen" meant someone who lived on the heath, a country dweller to be precise, but the term got a bit mangled as time went by and it came to mean "that person who doesn't believe in our one true God...lets kill 'em!")
Heck, Christians call other Christians heathen based on which sect they fall under. So there is no way in Hell, you are going to convince a Christian, "Well you know what, darn those pagans sure are nice folks after all, lets ignore our own religion and agree with them they're the same as us." Nuhu. No, not happening. I mean you can get along, and both of you can learn to politely not bring up religion in terms of "my god is bigger than yours" but can you ever make them accept your religious beliefs are correct? Well, no. Their God doesn't let them.

And before you get started on me, just in case by some bizzaro chance you haven't worked this out by now, I am pagan, my religious beliefs are decidedly polytheist in their outlook. I have also studied Christian theology extensively (for fun) and was raised in a Calvinist/Presbyterian household. (Actually my father was raised by his Austrian Jewish grandmother who married an Irish Roman Catholic imigrant whos daughter was a Jehova's Witness who married a Protestant Presbyterian. So really defining his beliefs as raised by his Austrian Jewish grandmother who married an Irish Roman Catholic imigrant whos daughter was a Jehova's Witness who married a Protestant Presbyterian doesn't really work...) I also have numerous Christian friends from all walks of Christian faith (it's amazing how the One True Path ended up with so many different sects of faith) who are willing and able to answer most questions I throw at them.

It is entirely possible to respect another person's religion without trying to Force your own on to them, or vice versa. However if you come out with such utter bull*censored* such as "I can combine religions and end all the world conflicts, yay for me I am a genius!" you need to faff off right now.

You may have able to combine them, within the confines of your own head, but out here, in reality, it doesn't work.

"I can follow the Greek Pantheon without breaking the Ten Commandments"
Wow...how cool is that...*smack* But at the same time, entirely wrong.

The Commandments go as follows (which I wont type out in full, I do have a life beyond my computer screen):

-1. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt...
This commandment is about believing in the existence of God.


-2. You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above...
Wich pretty much renders the above claim impossible because you can't have more than one God and it has to be this one.

-3. You shall not swear falsely by the name of the Lord...
- This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain oath. In Exodus, the text reads "in a vain oath" while in Deuteronomy it reads "in a false oath.
 
-4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy mentions "Keep" rather than "Remember")
Rather self explanatory.

-5. Honor your father and your mother...
This commandment is a development when compared to other laws of the Ancient East (for example, the Code of Hammurabi) that do not call for equal respect of the father and the mother.

-6. You shall not murder.
The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing. Which is handy.

-7. You shall not commit adultery.
Again, if you can't understand this, you're on your own.

-8. You shall not steal.
This is sometimes interpreted as kidnapping, since there are other injunctions against stealing property in the Bible.

-9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Damn that's my plans ruined.

-10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house...
So your neighbour's got a fast looking donkey in the drive, and boy does that fence look good...really breaks up the desert. Too bad you don't have any, oh and you can't be jealous of him either. Smug *censored*.
In Exodus, the text reads "... neighbor's house, ... neighbor's wife, nor his manservant..." etc. while in Deuteronomy, "thy neighbor's wife, ... thy neighbor's house, his field" etc.

So bearing in mind, that God is the God and his wors is the law, and no other theologies or "words of Gods" may be accepted, how the faff then does your theory work with regards to Christianity?

In short, it doesn't.

(And no you f*cktard, it does not say that "God's name is Jealousy." His name is Yahweh and he is a jealous God. And that's not even the Christian God, that's the Jewish God. Now look you nearly made me swear.)

Your belief works fine with Pagan theology. There is a popular line "All Gods are One God." which means that no matter how many faces and names you give to them, they are all aspects of the one original origin of creation.
And I'm about to burn even more bridges, while still tap dancing accross them on gasoline soaked shoes, yes, that means as pagans we should accept the Christian God as existing.

If you believe that all Gods are one God, then God and Jesus are a part of your faith too. This side to God is as valid as any of the others you have chosen. And don't tell me you wont because of what the Christians did to non Christians. I bet you still worship Diana on a full moon and invoke Isis when you feel like it despite the fact that the Romans kicked *censored* out of the Egyptians when Octavian conquered Egypt after the death of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, you snivelling little hypocrit. Never mind that Wicca/modern paganism came from Celtic roots, Damara who? Yes thought as much.)

The idea of accepting Christianity works from the pagan point of view. (Much like how from Obi-Wan Kenobi's point of view Anakin Skywalker was dead, but to Luke he was very much alive...I don't know why I'm mentioning this...)
There is actually such a thing known as Critches-and no, you don't use them to walk. A Critch, is someone who accepts Christian doctrine to an extent, believes in the teachings of Jesus but still are classes as being pagan as they do believe that there is more than one God. They have merely chosen to invoke Jesus to the full moon party rather than Artemis. If you've ever heard it, you'll know what I mean when I say it's hard to keep a straight face when someone says "Jesus I invite you to partake of my cup"*
These people essentially practice earth worship, except of calling on the earth mother or horned god for example, they call on Jesus of the Holy Mother Mary.

I'll be honest and say the idea confuses me more than I care to admit. But maybe I just really don't see Jesus being cool with the Great Rite. Although he did hang around with prostitutes so maybe I'm wrong.

But flipping the coing again. Am I ever going to find a commited Christian who accepts my belief that their God and my God are the same? No.
Why? The Horned One (although my own God of choice is actuually the Green Man-in all his forms) is the deity that turned in to their Devil.
The Horned one is the deity that they turned into their Devil.

I really don't seem them suddenly going "ooooh sorry about that old chums...didn't mean to villify your God and make him in to the root of all Evil what."

But I don't hold it against them. Christian doctrine and ideaollogy tells them that their God is the only God. And more importantly the only correct God. Jesus said "I am the one True way." for them to turn around and admit the existence of the polytheistic masses means they are no longer Christian.

The most a devout Christian can do, is accept that although we are pagan, we are not at root, bad pepole. We're different, and we're more than likely not going to make it in to your heaven, but we're not Evil.

Just as we should accept that you have your beliefs and that we'll never convince you that really, we do worship your God in our own way, and that there is no Hell.

So in short, stop tryig to merge religions. It's all very well to accept the existence of other faiths, and that they can co-exist, but claiming you can merge every aspect only works for those who are already pagan like in their mindset. You haven't merged two religions, you have made a new one that isn't Christian but again pagan. Please, try to understand this. I know it's hard with your limited brain capacity, but please.

*sigh*...hey, I did it. I went the whole way through without saying fuck in full!...oh Fuck! >.<




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2008-04-22 [Linn Scarlett]: You know what I mean *smacks Silvie on the nogging* ;)

2008-04-22 [SilverFire]: Reminds me of Noggin the Nog. <3

2008-04-22 [Linn Scarlett]: *skullcrunches* STFU <3

2008-07-22 [Singing my own Song]: Whilst helping out our old RE teacher to move rooms, a friend and I sat looking for religious quotes to stick up around the walls. One really nice quote (I can’t remember who by) was something along the lines of --> “Religion is a candle with a multi-coloured shade. We all look through a different colour but the candle is still there.” It is a really nice idea that all religions are the same just seen through a different perspective. But I think it should just STAY and idea because there is no way you could convince everyone that it was a fact. Sorry that I’ve just given my random input lol but this rant just reminded my of the quote. (we really made a very good display xD)

2008-07-30 [Linn Scarlett]: If you could convince everyone of that, there wouldn't be so many different religions nowadays. But religions all do basically the same at their core: order the world, reassure the people, ease the pain of death

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: at the risk of being a semi-fucktard here, i can kinda-sorta-almost seehow christianity and paganisim could converge.
hear me out-
there are schools of thought and intelligent theoligists who think that old testiment stories borrow from more ancient folklore. the garden story for example... theres a bit where they illude to an earlier woman than eve.. lillith, possibly adams first wife who was a bit of a bitch, and later became the reason we sing lullibies to babies (to scare her soul sucking ass away.) i wish i could refer you to speciffic web-sites or something, but i watched this show on the history channel that discussed it. there were other examples, but thats the one i can remember all the names for.

so, theoretically, if you go back far enough, the bible is just a serries of stories the judeo-christian faiths have created/ changed in the spirit of artistic one-up-manship.

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: yup, i'll more than likely go to hell for buying into it.

2009-01-31 [Delladreing]: Haha. No I do see what you mean, but that's only if you go back far enough and accept that it's a whole load of myths piled on top of each other. This flaunts the idea that every word in the Bible is the exclusive Christian truth.

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: true. i have run into christians that believe god himself (not someone acting on His behalf, but Him personally) wrote the bible. (and in English 9 times out of 10.) i suppose i'm a shitload more... liberal if you will. i dont figgure god in all his infanate wisdom really gave/gives enough of a shit to write things down. maybe to inspire others to do so, but cretainly never set pen to paper or (stick to tablet for that matter, being as the Bic corperation wasnt even imagined at the time of the origional texts). i dunno though. i'd likely be branded a heritic by 99% of "true" christians. you know, the ones who think of god once a week, when they go to their fashion show, um.. i mean church.

2009-01-31 [Delladreing]: It's the "liberal" minded folks who allow the combination of the two, but when all is said and done, as a Christian your religious job description as it were reads "One God" and thus a denial that anyone other than Jesus and Prophets have "magical powers."

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: as a whole, i dont buy into the bible. i like the moral to most of the stories, and i find them interesting, but i'm no great christian. i've broken all the commandments just about, except the making of idols, and murder one (so far. been tempted to break the murder one... i think we all have). i only classify myself as a "christian" because it comes the closest to what i am. (good ol' j.c. made me not have to offer actual sacrfices at the temple and what-not.) i'm not big into converting anyone to follow any religion (though i may try to sway them twards my way of thinking.) all in all , im lazy (in every aspect of my life, not just religiously), i dont like to argue, and i believe that the way people were "converted" back in the day was shitty. to each his own is sortta my motto. i have no real problem with any religion (or the absence of it). i'm a shitty christian all in all, if i was an employee, i'd have been fired long ago. even the jesus stories practice a lot of one-up-manship... "oh? you romans need a bunch of gods... look wha this one guy can do.. and he's only gods bastard child...." seems to be the root of it, from what i can tell. i use the bible, but in a theoretical way... theres a lot of good in it, but a lot of bs too. 

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: i'm just trying to explain me, not make excuses (though i do sound a lot like exactly what you describe here in a lot of ways.)

2009-01-31 [Delladreing]: Ah I'm not saying you're a good or bad Christian, I just...how can I put this. I don't like it when people deliberately mix and mash religions and then say something like "But it's just like this!" which to a Christian of the less liberal mindset...no it really isn't.

It works from a pagan or even a very liberal Christian viewpoint. But if you follow the Bible to The Word, then you cannot link the two. It's blasphemy.

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: oh well yes, to those that follow the bible to the word, it would be blasphemous, or should be. (or heretical, i always get the terms confused.) the same way that breaking the commandments (any of them) should be really bad. even #3 (useing God Damn loosely, or saying "Jeeesus H. Christ" when you stub your toe.)
so, it does work -the linking of the two- from a pagan P.O.V.?

2009-01-31 [hanhepi]: and by the way, i just read that you are studding to become an english teacher. i was always scared of mine... please dont flunk me.i know i suck with capitalization and spelling, and creative writing, and grammer sometimes, but i'm a huge ass kisser... i mean um.. i try really hard to do it right unless i'm typing fast so i dont loose my train of thought...

2009-01-31 [Delladreing]: Aha, it's okay. It's not like I am actually grading you on the comments ;)

And I can see the point that it works, but ONLY from a certain pov. The person I was dealing with at the time claimed it resolved a lot of Christian dispute. When it really didn't. What it was throw Christian doctrine and theory out the window.

2009-02-01 [hanhepi]: the only thing that will resolve "christian dispute" would be if there were no christians. :/ true of all faiths as far as i know. i believe there are always factionsand sub-groups and whatnot. about the only thing all christian sects believe is that there was a jesus, and he did die for "our sins". i'm not swearing anything, but i bet theres a small cult or 3 that dont even believe that. its a problem with no solution really.
and then of course, if all the christian sects agree with each other 100%, theres all the other religions left to hate. sigh. to fix it all, you'd have to fix all people. litterally fix them: spay/neuter kind of "fix". THEN, in a generation or so, the problem would be solved. :D

2010-10-27 [BarleySinger]: Just curious as to which bible translation version your used to quote your 10 commandments from. There are so very many of them, and there are serious differences. ANYWAY...The ones I grew up with said "no other gods before me" not "besides me". This leaves a hole for some sorts of polytheism, just not true fetishism, where on object is imbued with power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

2010-10-31 [Delladreing]: Can't look it up right now as I'm in the US and living with a recovered catholic but I'm quite sure it was the King James Bible I used, seen as how that was the one I was raised on.

2010-11-01 [Azuri]: The King James version is what my grandpa uses to preach from and I'm pretty sure I do remember hearing Before Me while in church.

2010-11-01 [hanhepi]: i was also raised on the king james version where Exodus 20:3 reads "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

but in our Baptist household, the commandments started there, the first 2 passages were just buildup to that, so it could be just the difference in which churches are preaching what. 

it was basically like this on the plaque in our house, and what we heard from the pulpit(verses shortened cause i'm lazy):
1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (etc)
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5) Honour thy father and thy mother
6) Thou shalt not kill
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery
8) Thou shalt not steal
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house,(etc)

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