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2009-01-08 18:19:10
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Faff is a great word, I think it was [SilverFire] who got me using it. Anyway, during the course of writing Playgans I found that I had taken to swearing a great deal more than I used to. And decided it wasn't all that professional of me, so decided to try and stop. But I never made any promises...

---

It has been brought to my attention, that I swear too much. So in a bid to raise the decorum of Playgans (hah) I shall substitute the word fuck for faff. But if you render me beyond annoyed and in to the realms of frothing at the mouth (again) I will turn the sky a shade of red and stun passing birds as my language flies through the air, you have been warned.

The reason for this delightful little excursion in to the realms of my madness was the following statement:

"I can link Paganism and Christianity" - fair enough you might say.
Their reasoning? It goes okay until it reaches the point where the argument basically comes down to "Christianity is basically paganism" and that's when I start faffing.

First of all, the term "pagan" these days refers to anyone that does not conform to mainstream religion. To a Christian it refers to the heathens (all other religions regardless of mainstream standing) who don't worship their God. (The ye olde terme used to be "Paganus" back in a time when "heathen" meant someone who lived on the heath, a country dweller to be precise, but the term got a bit mangled as time went by and it came to mean "that person who doesn't believe in our one true God...lets kill 'em!")
Heck, Christians call other Christians heathen based on which sect they fall under. So there is no way in Hell, you are going to convince a Christian, "Well you know what, darn those pagans sure are nice folks after all, lets ignore our own religion and agree with them they're the same as us." Nuhu. No, not happening. I mean you can get along, and both of you can learn to politely not bring up religion in terms of "my god is bigger than yours" but can you ever make them accept your religious beliefs are correct? Well, no. Their God doesn't let them.

And before you get started on me, just in case by some bizzaro chance you haven't worked this out by now, I am pagan, my religious beliefs are decidedly polytheist in their outlook. I have also studied Christian theology extensively (for fun) and was raised in a Calvinist/Presbyterian household. (Actually my father was raised by his Austrian Jewish grandmother who married an Irish Roman Catholic imigrant whos daughter was a Jehova's Witness who married a Protestant Presbyterian. So really defining his beliefs as raised by his Austrian Jewish grandmother who married an Irish Roman Catholic imigrant whos daughter was a Jehova's Witness who married a Protestant Presbyterian doesn't really work...) I also have numerous Christian friends from all walks of Christian faith (it's amazing how the One True Path ended up with so many different sects of faith) who are willing and able to answer most questions I throw at them.

It is entirely possible to respect another person's religion without trying to Force your own on to them, or vice versa. However if you come out with such utter bull*censored* such as "I can combine religions and end all the world conflicts, yay for me I am a genius!" you need to faff off right now.

You may have able to combine them, within the confines of your own head, but out here, in reality, it doesn't work.

"I can follow the Greek Pantheon without breaking the Ten Commandments"
Wow...how cool is that...*smack* But at the same time, entirely wrong.

The Commandments go as follows (which I wont type out in full, I do have a life beyond my computer screen):

-1. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt...
This commandment is about believing in the existence of God.


-2. You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above...
Wich pretty much renders the above claim impossible because you can't have more than one God and it has to be this one.

-3. You shall not swear falsely by the name of the Lord...
- This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain oath. In Exodus, the text reads "in a vain oath" while in Deuteronomy it reads "in a false oath.
 
-4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy mentions "Keep" rather than "Remember")
Rather self explanatory.

-5. Honor your father and your mother...
This commandment is a development when compared to other laws of the Ancient East (for example, the Code of Hammurabi) that do not call for equal respect of the father and the mother.

-6. You shall not murder.
The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing. Which is handy.

-7. You shall not commit adultery.
Again, if you can't understand this, you're on your own.

-8. You shall not steal.
This is sometimes interpreted as kidnapping, since there are other injunctions against stealing property in the Bible.

-9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Damn that's my plans ruined.

-10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house...
So your neighbour's got a fast looking donkey in the drive, and boy does that fence look good...really breaks up the desert. Too bad you don't have any, oh and you can't be jealous of him either. Smug *censored*.
In Exodus, the text reads "... neighbor's house, ... neighbor's wife, nor his manservant..." etc. while in Deuteronomy, "thy neighbor's wife, ... thy neighbor's house, his field" etc.

So bearing in mind, that God is the God and his wors is the law, and no other theologies or "words of Gods" may be accepted, how the faff then does your theory work with regards to Christianity?

In short, it doesn't.

(And no you f*cktard, it does not say that "God's name is Jealousy." His name is Yahweh and he is a jealous God. And that's not even the Christian God, that's the Jewish God. Now look you nearly made me swear.)

Your belief works fine with Pagan theology. There is a popular line "All Gods are One God." which means that no matter how many faces and names you give to them, they are all aspects of the one original origin of creation.
And I'm about to burn even more bridges, while still tap dancing accross them on gasoline soaked shoes, yes, that means as pagans we should accept the Christian God as existing.

If you believe that all Gods are one God, then God and Jesus are a part of your faith too. This side to God is as valid as any of the others you have chosen. And don't tell me you wont because of what the Christians did to non Christians. I bet you still worship Diana on a full moon and invoke Isis when you feel like it despite the fact that the Romans kicked *censored* out of the Egyptians when Octavian conquered Egypt after the death of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, you snivelling little hypocrit. Never mind that Wicca/modern paganism came from Celtic roots, Damara who? Yes thought as much.)

The idea of accepting Christianity works from the pagan point of view. (Much like how from Obi-Wan Kenobi's point of view Anakin Skywalker was dead, but to Luke he was very much alive...I don't know why I'm mentioning this...)
There is actually such a thing known as Critches-and no, you don't use them to walk. A Critch, is someone who accepts Christian doctrine to an extent, believes in the teachings of Jesus but still are classes as being pagan as they do believe that there is more than one God. They have merely chosen to invoke Jesus to the full moon party rather than Artemis. If you've ever heard it, you'll know what I mean when I say it's hard to keep a straight face when someone says "Jesus I invite you to partake of my cup"*
These people essentially practice earth worship, except of calling on the earth mother or horned god for example, they call on Jesus of the Holy Mother Mary.

I'll be honest and say the idea confuses me more than I care to admit. But maybe I just really don't see Jesus being cool with the Great Rite. Although he did hang around with prostitutes so maybe I'm wrong.

But flipping the coing again. Am I ever going to find a commited Christian who accepts my belief that their God and my God are the same? No.
Why? The Horned One (although my own God of choice is actuually the Green Man-in all his forms) is the deity that turned in to their Devil.
The Horned one is the deity that they turned into their Devil.

I really don't seem them suddenly going "ooooh sorry about that old chums...didn't mean to villify your God and make him in to the root of all Evil what."

But I don't hold it against them. Christian doctrine and ideaollogy tells them that their God is the only God. And more importantly the only correct God. Jesus said "I am the one True way." for them to turn around and admit the existence of the polytheistic masses means they are no longer Christian.

The most a devout Christian can do, is accept that although we are pagan, we are not at root, bad pepole. We're different, and we're more than likely not going to make it in to your heaven, but we're not Evil.

Just as we should accept that you have your beliefs and that we'll never convince you that really, we do worship your God in our own way, and that there is no Hell.

So in short, stop tryig to merge religions. It's all very well to accept the existence of other faiths, and that they can co-exist, but claiming you can merge every aspect only works for those who are already pagan like in their mindset. You haven't merged two religions, you have made a new one that isn't Christian but again pagan. Please, try to understand this. I know it's hard with your limited brain capacity, but please.

*sigh*...hey, I did it. I went the whole way through without saying fuck in full!...oh Fuck! >.<




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2006-06-20 [Maelthra]: i hope you weren't suggesting that i was condeming someone for what their religion says cause i could care less if they like me for what i believe anyways.

2006-06-20 [SilverFire]: Really? Your previous comment seems to suggest that you feel anyone who doesn't share you views is closed-minded. :o How closed-minded. And since it seems pretty much everyone who read your comment drew that interpretation, maybe you should consider purchasing a dictionary to help you express yourself more clearly.

2006-06-20 [Linn Scarlett]: *can as always not resist the urge* I hope I can do some ugly judgements on you via your believe. I just can't take the shit that playgans go like "Oh but don't you no what the Christians did to US". It's what they did to 'people in ancient times that believe the same as me, which is possible, since I am an asatru and not a wicca'. And then I usually tell them that they'd favor what the christians did to them to what I am going to do to them if they don't stop pretending right now -_-

2006-06-20 [Linn Scarlett]: Making the Christian people to blame is just pathetic. Some people just suck and some are very kind, goes for all people, yes for Christians too.

2006-06-20 [Delladreing]: I wrote this wiki and many others like it, to stop people hating on Christianity and calling them close minded for having utter faith in their religion. I've been studying the theology for longer than that of pagnism, people that say "oh well they are close minded because they cannot accepy my view" tend to be clode minded.

2006-06-20 [Linn Scarlett]: *nod nod* It's funny how most people think they are always right... it must be a flaw in evolution or something

2006-06-20 [Delladreing]: Its human nature to err, only the divine can admit to their mistakes and still be great ;)

2006-06-20 [Linn Scarlett]: Hmm I feel so divine right now ;)

2006-06-20 [Delladreing]: *pets* :P

2006-06-20 [Linn Scarlett]: *grins slightly while obediently standing in Dela's mighty shadow* ;)

2006-06-20 [Delladreing]: *lmao*

2006-06-21 [Maelthra]: i did not say that anyone who does not share my views is close minded. what i was TRYING to say since you all think i need a dictionary, and probably do, is that anyone who downs anothers religion because they do not understand it is close minded because they have not taken the opportunity to learn what they are downing before they do so.

2006-06-21 [Delladreing]: That is still irellevant to the Chritian faith which is my point, they may acknowledge other religions existances, but theoretically they are not meant to accept any other religion as the truth in accordance with their scripture. Which was the point I was trying to make.

2006-06-21 [Linn Scarlett]: It is, to explain what Dela probably means: in their docterine to NOT accept other religions than their own, so any good christian, you would call "close minded", which is, in my opinion, tha biggest shit I ever heard O.o'

2006-08-22 [BarleySinger]: I would say that there are people in the world who like to "pick and choose" which pieces of various religions they like. In fact this is very common. I do have a bit of a problem with this approach, partially I like calling an egg by its actual name. I would rather not deal with people who want me to call all of the bananas in the world, eggs, just to make them feel better. 

See, in some cases there there really is an existing name for the religion or religious philosophy that a person esposes and they are just not using the right term. Some people insist on calling themselves by a name that does not really fit due to comfort with the other name, and others just do not know any better. Sometimes people keep a name that they know does not really fit in order to gain social acceptance from the peers. There are a huge number of people who call themselvs christians who are actually Deist (nearly all of the founders of the US nation were Deist, not christian - and said so repeatedly and vocally). 

In "pagandom" There are a huge number of people who call themselves "Wiccan" who are actually more like "eclectic pagans", or "non-theistic pagans", or even "animist pagans".

I know, I know, labels and splitting hairs and all that...bla bla bla....It isn;t all that incredibly important all of the time - but - personally I like to be accurate whan I am talking so that people can tell what I am talking about.

Then there is the further problem of denominations or sects within religions, which really messes things up. Some denominations are really out there as to how far they depart from standad teaching. Often this has to do with major changes in "main stream theology" that happened back a long time ago. For instance Trinitarianism was not a part of mainstram christianity until at least the 4th century woith the occurance of the Council of Nicaea (which was not wel attended by the way).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism

After a specific denomination broke off from the religion, the religion coulds undergo major changes that left earlier departures in other denominations with much older ideas.

As a person who was raised fundy baptist and was for a long time a serious bible scholar, and has since those earlier days investigated the teachings of other sects of chrisitianity as well as other religions, I would say that this is a huge problem. When talking about christianity or any other religoin for that matter: which version of the religion do you mean? Most moderate believers in a givern religion ignore all of the frothing and bloodthirsty and outright icks parts of their religion. This is true in Judeism, Islam and Christianity. 

Some versions of a given religion depart so far from the standards of even earlier versions that people question if that sect is even a part of the same religion. Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses are considered by most people in government to be side branches of christianity. In fact a lot of non christiants, and not-so-active christians feel the same way.  However most of your more serious christians do not agree with the idea that their God (Jehovah) is just a transcendent space alien who was given a world (earth) to populate with his "spirit babies" as a reward for being a good mormon. They don't. They do believe in some sort of metaphysical redemption for curing their inherited sin nature, by way of christs death by proxy. Jehovahs Witnesses on the other hand believe that Jesus failed in his mission and was not supposed to die at all.

So the question of how far off of the beaten trail you can go..before you are on another totally different trail, comes to mind. This was actually the reason for the creation of the Roman Churches Inquisition. They wanted to have one and only one theology. At the time they had thousands of them, and a huge number of the local priests seemed to be preaching their own personal version of the religion.

Some religious denominations do not allow for this degree of freedom of personal belief inside of their specific sect. They don't wan't it, and do not allow it, but instead want everybody to believe exactly the same things, which oddly enough is also hallmark of a "cult-like" organisation. The more control is exherted over the people in a group (socially, financially, control of allowable information, claims of being "specially appointed" as a source of information, etc) the more cult tlike the group. A lack of extreme social control tends to go along with more moderate religious beliefs, in which people tend to just ignore those portions of their religions which are not to their ethical taste.

2008-04-22 [Killopkie]: Like how people seem to put labels and images in their minds on words. Like the word "God". To some people it means the divine one. To others it may be offensive because of the labels put on it. Fact is that in one place "fish" might mean "shovel", and in the other "shovel" might have no meaning at all.
Also, how can you say that someone can't make up something in their own mind and call it their religion? Religions are all human made anyway. People just up and thought of them, because the human mind is a great thing capable of creating amazing things, as well as capable of destroying amazing things. But yeah, anyone that makes up their own way of things is completely entitled to it, because it's all made up in the first place. Made up as in from the human mind.
Also, we shouldn't separate ourselves from each other. We are all one identity, we are all part of each other, maybe not by mind or body, but by presents, we are all on the same plane.
ok, no more rambling from me.

2008-04-22 [SilverFire]: Your claim that religion is man-made is very obviously simply your opinion, and I'm at a loss as to why you think you can present it as a fact that apparently doesn't even need verification (judging by the lack of it you give). Most theists will object to your view, as rightly they should. They think they're expressing facts about the physical as well as the spiritual world which are true independent of belief in them. You're telling them, with no justification, that it's all in their head.

2008-04-22 [Linn Scarlett]: You know, I could put my glasses on and start this enormous comment about my recent research concerning Neanderthals and 'religion'. But you know, my glasses are too far away. Can't reach them without getting up. So I'll keep it simple, just imagine me telling this whole story about Neanderthals which will come to the point that what I really mean to say is: I agree with Silver. As much as I like quoting one of our dearest (*spits on ground*) philosophers "Religion is the opium of the people", that is just my opinion. Which still means you have no right what so ever to tell people it's all just in their head. Sort-a-rude, you know? So there. *Goes to stand near the mob behind Silver*

2008-04-22 [Linn Scarlett]: Also, this might just be the scientist in me but I have to say this: "OMG WTF YOU USE WIKIPEDIA AS A RELIABLE SOURCE?" Let's just say I trust wikipedia with objective information as much as I trust El Pacino with my life.

2008-04-22 [SilverFire]: I find wikipedia a good place to start research, given a random topic, read wikipedia, then go away thinking 'right, I need to find books on x, y and z.' My lecturers agree. Great to figure out what to research, but not for actually researching. :P

2008-04-22 [Linn Scarlett]: You know what I mean *smacks Silvie on the nogging* ;)

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