Page name: Elftown Creature Marathon Discussions [Logged in view]
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Greetings, and welcome to the discussion wiki for Elftown's first official contest marathon, a series of competitions that aims to create the best possible informative wiki-pages of the creature_list about different creatures on the internet! Please keep your discussions centered around this specific agenda. Thank you.
This discussion began in the comments on Elftown Creature Marathon:
]: I would love to see all sorts of dragons from all sorts of backgrounds, and even some dragon-related creatures (since they take many forms in many mythologies around our own world, let alone the fantasy realms). Great question, [Mom
]! I am really excited to know that you have an interest in joining! *hugs*
ECM Nymph looks okay, but is it anywhere on the list of potential to-do's? D&D classifies Nymphs as a type of Fey (Fae, Fairyfolk, Sylvans, etc.), and they are identified as spirits of nature in mythology. Because of that, I personally would consider them a faerie (kin or folk), and potentially part of that contest. Or, of course, you could wait until we get to that point on the CL... Which means you might be waiting a while.... Anyways, I commented on the Nymph ECM page potential. Please see that comment.
Sorry I am not around much, guys. I am hoping to change that soon. I have been doing a lot of work on my own things, and on some RP content concepts that I am seeking representation for.
*loves Elftown and misses her*
I have a semi-connection now, so I can be on every so often again. Starting a new job, hoping to find a place to live (again), and hoping to make money doing what I love: art and writing. Wish me luck!
On that note, I wish all entrants in the ECM Dragon the best of luck! I will keeping an eye on the new entries, and can't wait to see what all of you have in store for us. You all rock! x.o)
2007-10-27 [Skydancer]: Nymphs are not fairies, and dnd is not the reality of human mythology. Nymphs are the immediate spirits of the life of a place. Those that "are" the spirits of the trees, plants, waters, rocks, and places of a natural area. A nymph such as a hammadryad may be a host to fairy folk, but they are definately two different species, according to everything I know about them. Of course real fairies, in mythology are generally not friendly to man and in fact tend to be quite dangerous if not downright lethal :) Just my opinion from what I know of course.
2007-10-27 [Skydancer]: I will if I can keep my energies up dig out some of my books and references and see what I can put up as actual legendary and mythological spirits and individual cultural information. Most of my knowledge is celtic, briton, germantic, norse, irish and of course native american. It would be very interesting to me, if we could have some serious input from natives of the various countries and what they might be able to find in their own libraries from their own legends and tales of their people. :)
2007-10-27 [Artsieladie]: I agree about hearing from native folk. Often they can shed a more intricate light about aspects, which one can't easily find in books & other sources. :)
2007-10-28 [SilverFire]: I agree with Skydancer, nymphs and faeries are different, they have their origins in different cultures and myth-sets. I was going to comment on D&D, but I see Skydancer beat me to that too. <3
2007-10-28 [Artsieladie]: Yes, my daughter, who knows a lot more about this topic than I, also agrees with Skydancer. :P
05:13:35 [Skydancer]: Well, D&D is a venerable game system, but basically none of it is based on fact or real cultural legends and myth. Its a little like taking World of Warcraft as the basis for information about World War Two.
06:28:37 [Artsieladie]: *nods* I understand. In other words, one needs to consider the source. :P It seems so many are into WoW or FF or Star Wars, etc., & so much art today seems to center around these games & movies. Personally, I'd like to see more unique, more original art, outside the box, the box being the aforementioned. There is such an infinite supply of inspiration, I ask, why be so limited? Ok, so I'm getting a bit off the subject. :P
07:27:52 [SilverFire]: You mean people didn't ride gryphons to bomb behind enemy lines in WWII?? Drat. I've been deceived. ._.
07:32:13 [Skydancer]: well, heres the thing as I see it. This is suppose to be, from what I have been reading, about "real" dragons, mages, elves, fairies, etc, etc, etc. I wonder how many folk realize just how little of what is out there in fantasy art has any relation to the "real" thing. Vampires for instance. Not real at all except for the vampire bat. Not even legendary. Probably the nearest thing to a vampire are the fox women of oriental legend. And they do not drink blood. The whole concept of immortality through blood is one, a pure invention by a writer, two, expounded and developed upon by other writers, and three... based on a christian theme, which is in reality, a very small percentage of the actual religions out there.
07:50:06 [SilverFire]: Which means that 'vampire' falls under the category of 'modern myth'. But I don't see how that makes it any less a myth, or gives it a lower status than long established myths.
08:06:09 [Skydancer]: Because its not myth. Its a fantasy story by a fantasy author, not from the fabric, history and tales of a culture, which is what a legend or myth is. If you accept that as the basis of myth, then Yoda is a mythic figure. Its not about status, its about traditions. And legends and myths have established traditions for generation upon generations. Accept vampires if you wish, but in doing so what you are really doing is saying that a few authors fantasy, which they themselves say is fantasy, are the truth of your past. Legends and Myth are not fantasy, they are taken, and told, and taught, as the reality of a culture. Tales to keep them alive, or to teach moral lessons, or to learn important truths about surviving in a given society. It just really depends on what these references are to be. Are they about the truth of legendary and mythic creatures, or are they just references to fantasy literature and art? Or some where in between? There is a huge amount of material out there about vampires, and its all "fanfic" or direct fantasy stories by fantasy authors who make it quite clear they are authors, not legendary historians. Shrug.
08:11:18 [Skydancer]: Actually I only spoke up using vampires as an easy example. The exact same thing applies to modern books on fairie, or dragons, or elves, or what have you. What I really was after was to start a discussion on just what this reference was going to be about. :)
10:45:45 [nehirwen]: I wasn't thinking at all about D&D when I made the ECM Nymph... I just thought they're the spirits of nature etc, according to the Greek mythology. I would love to see [Skydancer] to dig up some information out of his books and references to share with us :) I will go to the library as well ^^ *loves to see there are more people around interested in Nymphs*
11:03:36 [Skydancer]: I will do that, I was just researching oriental foxes and norse elves. Which actually are pretty much what people think of as fairies today. Little people under the hills, live in underground halls, under trees, etc, the elves that is.
11:25:14 [nehirwen]: I appreciate that ^^ I'm really curious in what you will come up with :)
18:24:24 [SilverFire]: So to be a myth, it has to have been aroud for X amount of time? And Who decides who old it has to be before it suddenly counts as a myth? The reason most myths didn't start as stories written down was because when they were made, there was no writing. So they became part of an oral tradition instead. If there had been writing, they would have been part of a literary tradition - as happened with older myths as soon as writing was developed. The vampiric myth has evolved in much the same way as ancient myths. Stories get retold, retold and retold, and as that happens, they evolve. That's why there are so many versions of some of the ancient myths. Just because a story doesn't come from the period that one traditionally expects of myth, doesn't mean it isn't myth. Myth is not history, it is fantasy. And you seem to be suggesting that all people like Bram Stoker wanted to do was tell a pretty fantasy story, as if there's no moral aspect to his work.
Every myth has a beginning. There was a point for every myth where it wasn't part of a culture, or a history, it became so because people repeated it. If people talked of Yoda in the same way they talked of vampires, they yes, actually, I would happily accept Yoda as a mythic figure. As is, they don't. But they do talk about vampires in the same way they talk about Gorgons and chimeras. It has become myth, just like the plight of Achilles became myth.
19:15:18 [Skydancer]: Like I have said, if you choose to incorporate the vampire concept into your life that up to you. But I do not believe you have the right to simply rewrite the flow of human history for everyone else. Do you? I know I don't. Historical truth is the basis for all humankind. Not a fantasy book. Not for me.
19:33:11 [Skydancer]: Tell you what, thinking about it. Lets examine another group that revolve around a fanasy book, perhaps one that is not such a trigger for you. How about GOR? There are quite a few people out there that have adopted it into their lives, live a "gorean" lifestyle and do a great deal on the web, in rp and have written up quite lot of material to support their concept. Is that a valid myth then? Now remember, GOR is another planet, a "counter earth" on the opposite side of the sun. So all this totally ignores our probes, our mapping of the solar system, etc. Yet they are quite convinced that its perfectly ok to follow a code that enslaves, dominates, binds and exalts strength over any other virtue. GOR is one hundred percent fiction. Thousands of people however follow that artificial lifestyle. Which by the way in its extreme form supports kidnapping, rape, training by force to personal service, etc. At what point do we as a community or even as individual souls, support the harming of other beings? Including people? To make a fictional character part of the basis of your life, or worse, to attempt to force it onto others as a reality is not, in my mind, a good thing. Shrugs. Just my opinion of course. But I am a fantasy artist, I don't live in my paintings, they are just an interpretation of things I see around me in my own chosen way of expression. At no point would I ever expect anyone to believe any of it is real. In fact, I would be a bit horrified if they did.
19:48:40 [Sunrose]: This marathon is supposed to be about creatures, to make the best informational page about them as can be found online. Whether they are truth, legend, myth, fabrications, etc: all approaches should be given attention.
I think we're losing sight of this intention when we start to combat each other what is truth and what is not: Even historical truth can be debated and no one here can force another to take on a belief/opinion/etc.
So let's not get lost in that issue and respect everyone for whatever they do or do not believe in :)
20:46:19 [Skydancer]: Sounds good to me, as the entire reason I brought things up was the further definition of the purpose of these references as stated :)
21:07:13 [Sunrose]: As for the question whether or not to place nymphs among the fea, wikipedia separates them. If I do a Google search for images they get very distinctive results.
So I think it's OK for us to separate them as well :)
21:19:07 [SilverFire]: I don't believe I said anything about re-writing the flow of human history for everyone else. And re-reading my comment, I'm not really sure where you got that impression from, and it certainly wasn't the impression I intended to give. Nor did I say that I incorporate the vampire concept into my life. Personally, I don't care about vampires, I'm just interested in what counts as myth or not, and why. So no, vampires aren't a particular "trigger" for me, and I don't really know where you got the idea that they were from. My previous comments stand for whatever example you give.
Old mythos incorporates into it's beliefs a geocentric model of the universe and many other "facts" which modern science disproves, if your point against gorean "myth" is that it goes against modern scientific evidence, then that is a point against all myth. Leaning on extremism is also an invalid form of argument. Everything in it's extreme will allow concepts that "normal" people find horrifying. As for making fictional characters part of your life - this is exactly how myth started out. At some point people actually believed the stories of Achilles.
But this discussion has gone off-topic and is just cluttering the page now. If you really want to continue this discussion, we should take it off this page. :)
21:57:00 [Skydancer]: Nope, I got the clarification I wanted, thanks :) I think I will suggest though that sources be quoted and a bit of good information on just where the offered material comes from would be a great idea. For the sake of accuracy.
22:00:09 [Sunrose]: Aye, so far I think sources have been quoted (as in linking to the original articles). Artsie probably knows more about this though :)
00:09:46 [Artsieladie]: Actually, I'm finding everyone's comments & points of view very interesting. Discussion is important in any project or endeavor. I would like to see all sides covered about each creature. People will ultimately form their own opinion when they are provided with all of the information. I would like to see more discussion, actually. I took the liberty & set up Elftown Creature Marathon Discussions & I moved this discussion there ([ here ]). It is open to/for all Elftowners to participate in. Actually, [Hedda] knows more about what is expected here. It would be my guess to be all informative, b/c the best can't be achieved, if parts are left out. :P
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